Wednesday, January 1, 2020

History Men: Jadunath Sarkar, G. S. Sardesai, Raghubir Sinh and their Quest for India's Past: A Review

A look at the world of politics, statecraft, diplomacy and books

History Men: Jadunath Sarkar, G. S Sardesai, Raghubir Sinh and their Quest for India's Past\
T C A Raghavan
New Delhi: Harper Collins, 2019



Dr T C A Raghavan, a noted diplomat, historian and public intelelctual has written an outstanding book which covers the territory upon which Dipesh Chakravarthy has grazed in his Calling of History. Charkavarthy was concerned only with the writings of Sir Jadunath Sarkar, Ragavan has traversed a much larger chunk of Historiography. He has situated his examination of the three historians whose work he has analysed in great depth, at the intersection of their individual lives, their collaboration in the pursuit of historical documents and the deep personal bonds of friendship that bound them. Their quest for India's past took them to remote villages, towns and cities all over North India and Mahrashtra and thye uncovered significant troves of historical material which were carefully edited and published. All three of the scholars were pioneers in that they were historians who had to locate, collate and edit the documents on which their histories were based. And for the Maharatha Period and the Post Mughal Era this meant a mastery over a number of scripts and languages: Mahrathi, Persian, Arabic, French, Dutch and Portuguese. The three historians collaborated with each other as Dr Raghavan has shown in the most intensnse and academically fruitful manner. It is interesting to learn that Sir Jadunath Sarkar's reconstruction of the Battle of Panipat, 1761 was based on a contemporary record. The Hafta Anjuman a post Mughal history was located and used by Sarkar in his Fall of the Mughal Empire.

The History Men is an important work of historiography as it deals with the intellectual climate in which Indians began to explore their past. This quest was particularly difficult as it coincided with two very huge popular movements: the Freedom Movement and the Partition Movement, both at times collaborating and at times confronting each other. Politically the times were charged with the high voltage current of identity politics, the Moslem and Hindu one aimed at carving a holemand for the Muslims and the other aimed at preserving the unity and integrity of India as a nation and Civilization. Sir Jadunath Sarkar himelf was a victim of the Partion Movement as his eledest son was killed in the riots. And as Raghavan points out he did not recover from this tragedy. The substantial work of Sir Jadunath revolved around Aurangazeb and his reign. His five volume History of Aurangazeb was based on the original letters and Court Documents which were located in Jaipur, Gwalior and other places. Sarkar used the court documents judicially and his account of the rise of the Maharathas as the most powerful challengers to the hegemony of the Mughals was essentially an analysis of Mahratha documents. The collaboration with G S Sardesai was important as Sarkar though conversant with Modi had his transcripts of the Mahrati documents checked by Sardesai.

In his Shivaji and His Times, Sarkar provided a balanced and nuanced account of Sivaji but the Poona Scholars associated with the Ithihasa Samshodaka Mandala like Rajwade were quite hostile to the work. Raghavan expalins the hostility as stemming from the intrusion of a Bengali in Mahrashtra and its history at a time when the cult around Shivaji was becoming the defining element in the identity of Maharashtrians. There is also the growing assertion of a caste identity during this time and Shivaji and his legacy were deeply contested. Rughubir Sinh, the scion of the Sitamau Princely State located in Malwa wrote his D Phil thesis on Malwa in Transition a work which was much appreciated by Sarkar. Later Raghubir Sinh became a memmber of the Lok Sabha and served two terms and established a Research Institute at Sitmau.

Raghavan has done a splendid job in ressurecting the memory and contribution of these early pioneers of Indian Historiography. One of the unfortunate developments of post Independence Era was the appropriation of Indian History by an ideologically committed group of historians, some would even say cabal of histry peddlers, who with the patronage of the Indian State drove these pioneers into obvlivion. Their pamphlet Communalism and the Writing of Indian History published by the Peoples' Publishing House became the manifesto for a kind of History thatn pitted Historians into hostile camps. Anyone disagreeing with the High Priets of the New Creed was  "Communal" :\"Reactionary" "Anti Modern" etc. The climate of free and dispassionate reconstruction of the past was vitiated by the personality clash betwee the pioneers like Sarkar, Sardesai, Majumdhar, Nilakanta Sastri, H C Ray chowdhury and others with Mohammad Habib and later his son and successor, Irfan Habib. That this clash has not ended is made amply clear in the recent public brawl in which Irfan Habib prevented the Governor of Kerala from continuing with his Speech. An ugly episode which would have been unthinkable in the civilzed days of Sarkar and friends.

Saturday, December 21, 2019

The Citizenship Amendment Act of 2019: A Statement


The Citizenship Amendment Act of 2019


 By offering a path to Citizenship, for those belonging to the Sikh,
Jain, Hindu, Buddhist and Christian faiths, minorities in the Islamic
Republics of Pakistan and Bangladesh, India has taken a decisive step
towards reasserting its historical mission as the refuge of persecuted
minorities. Religion based discrimination is openly practiced in the counties
named in the Act and it is incumbent upon India to ensure that such
discrimination is repugnant to the spirit of Indian Civilization. In 1971, India
fought a war against Pakistan to ensure the safety, security and dignity of the
Bengalis of East Pakistan.

The Citizenship Amendment Act does not change the secular fabric of
India in that it does not abridge or restrict the Citizenship rights of Indian
citizens. The Act applies only to the countries named and does not involve
the rights of Indian citizens who are protected by the Constitution. It is highly
irresponsible on the part of certain vested interests to instigate their cadre,
particularly the student community, along communal lines. The Shahi Imam
of the Juma Masjid in Delhi has rightly emphasized that the CAA does not
concern any citizen of India and has come out strongly in support of the Act.
The provisions of the Act are not applicable to Indian citizens and it is really
surprising that students are being misled on this fundamental issue. The
vicious propaganda that is being spread that it curtails the rights of certain
communities is mischievous and has to be condemned in the strongest
possible manner.

The plight of the minorities in the Islamic Republics in the neighboring
areas of India, particularly Pakistan and now increasingly in Bangla Desh as
well is extremely precarious: Life, Liberty, Livelihood and even basic human
right are all threatened. The minorities, particularly the Hindus, Sikhs,
Buddhists, Jains and Christians are being ill treated and are being
systematically threatened and the Indian Press carries horror stories of their
situation in these States. The horrors of Partition and the lack of clarity on the
status of the indigenous minorities in these areas has contributed to the
present situation. These minorities are being persecuted on a daily basis and
the Constitution of these states do not recognize Minority Rights and hence
India has to come to their rescue. Forcible conversion, kidnapping and
forcible marriage of minority women and the indiscriminate use of the
Blasphemy Laws to harass, intimidate and imprison minorities are everyday
occurrences. We know about the suffering of the Christian woman eho was in
prison for 10 years and faced death sentence on account of the misuse of the
draconian Blasphemey Law. The Islamic Republic of Pakistan is a state that
sponsors terrorism and hence it is necessary for India to keep its population
safe. The Nation has not forgotten 26 th November 2008 and the horrible
Massacre in Mumbai.

The CAA reinforces the humanitarian character of the Indian State.
Throughout the ages India has given refuge to oppressed people and we have
the example of the Jews of Kochi and the Parsis to demonstrate the inclusive
and tolerant character of India. The indigenous people trapped in the
neighboring countries must have been rescued in the years following
Partition and only the Narendra Modi Government took the challenge and
enacted this law. By giving refugee status and opening a Path to Citizenship
the Government is fulfilling one of the promises made by all political parties
right from Independence. India is acting in concert with its legal and
constitutional obligations.

A campaign of misinformation and baseless innuendo has been
launched by certain political parties which do not serve the people but rather
divide the Nation for their own narrow political ends. We must emphasize
that there is no discrimination against any group or religion. Citizenship is
being offered only to those who suffer discrimination harassment and
humiliation on the basis of religion in the neighboring states. Second, no
Indian citizen loses his rights as a result of the CAA. Calculated campaign of
misinformation has been instigated by certain political parties which seek to
stir up trouble and thereby further their political goals.

The Nation thanks Narendra Modi and his Government for enacting
this Law which will go a long way in mitigating the suffering of minorities. world of politics, statecraft, diplomacy and books

Thursday, October 31, 2019

Animals in Combat: Is the use of Animals in Combat justified

A look at the world of politics, statecraft, diplomacy and books

K9 Hero honoured by Trump
The use of animals in warfare is as old as war itself. Elephants, Horses, Dogs, Dolphins, Donkeys and even bats have been used in war. The beautiful picture of President Trump honouring the dog that valiantly burst into the tunnel in which the iSIS leader, al Bagdadi had taken refuge raises an importat point: are we justied in using animals in war, combat or in situations in which anima life is considered expendable and therefore sacrificed.  Since animals do not have either the ability or the requirement to give their consent, the abuse of animals in the name of military serive is taken for granted. It is also a fact that when they have bravely discharged their assigned duties, they are put to sleep when they groiw old and are no longer needed in the Army. India too was following the practice of putting war animals especially Dogs and Horses to sleep when their day was done. It is to the eternal credit of India's Prime Minister Narendra Modi that this inhuman tradition has been ended and animals declared old or unfit are sent to a State funded retirement home.

Ever since the beginning of warfare animals have been used in combat. tHE GREEK FRIEZE  in the British Museum is an early representaion of a horse in combat. We can see in the picture on the left horses are literally being strangled as they bear the weight of the hoplite and confront the enemy.  Herodotus the great historian was the first to draw attention to the courage shown byEques in combat. The Mongols who conquered and ruled the largest Empire in history used horses to ride into batte and with the stirrup which the Mongols invented harnessed the strength of the horse as a force against the enemy. It is said that a force of just 15,000 Mongol Horsemen coquered the Abbasid Empire. The knights of the middle ages faught on horseback and the tall horses were even equipped with armour. Certainly animals used in war were looked after well. Afterall the fate of battle depended on the health and strenght of the animal.

In World War I, on the battle field of Gallipoli withessed the most amazing animal of all performing its dities admist the dreary tench of death and cannonfire. Duffy, the donkey carried innumerable ANZAC soldiers to safety and a grateful country gave the highest military decoration to Duffy whose satute stands, I beleive, opposite the Parliament building in Canberra. The Donkey never flinched in the face of danger like the cannine hero who wom a military decoration in USA for his role in tracking down al Bagdadi.

While human have been grateful for the services and support provided by animals we have to raise the question: Are we justified in using animals in combat. The use of animals to sniff out drugs and mines does not pose an immediate dange to animals. However if they are sent to war their lives are put to risk. The justification for this is the Christian notion that Man has "Dominion" over animals. However, Sanathana Dharma eshews such simplistic notions. Animals are part of nature and putting them in harms way is certainly not justified.


Monday, October 14, 2019

The Politics and Theory of the Nobel Prize in Economics: Why Abhijit Banerjee and Liberal Theory will not work

A look at the world of politics, statecraft, diplomacy and books



The announcement that Prof. Abhijit Banerjee and his wife have been awarded the Nobel Prize for Economics has been met with estatic glee by both the CPM and the Congress. This fact alone should alert us to the fact that Economic Policies and prescriptions are not altogether free of political and ideological biases.
Western Economic Theory has had an importnat place in Indian political discourse. Nehru adopted the Planned Economy model of Command Economy though the Planning Commission and ensured that India does not grown beyond 3.5% every year. Man Mohan Singh and the then Prime Minister Narasimha Rao opended up the economy and the growth sputtered to 9 to 10%. The Congress in its 2019 Manifesto promised a Universal Income of Rs 72,000 per family. This schem appartently was suggested by this year's Noble Prize winner, Dr Abijit Banerjee   and we will turn to this particular scheme as a proverty alleviating meaure.
The sub prime lending crisis that hit the American Market and let to a Global slowdown in the Worls Economy and more recently the recession that was partly mitigated by huge infusion of funds from the Federal Reserves are all classical keynesian measures. India with its triple problem of Poverty Population and Politicians cannot be so sanguine about political theory offering a way out.
Abhijit Banerjee was afgainst the DeMonitization launcehed by the Hon ble Prime Minister. The economic theory underlying his approach is regnant with the amorality of liberal economic theory. The "Black Money" can be taxed at the consumption end and so it is not bad for the economy. The circulation of Balck Money was to the extent od 33% of the National GDP. And so when the money is spent some of it gets taxed or so the liberal theory goes. What this theory ignores is the fact that much of the politically generated Black Money was being sent abroad as the slew of procecutions now demonstrate and so was of no import as far as the Indian Economy went. Hence this precious assumption of Liberal Economic theory just does not hold any substance.
Another measure that these "poverrty economiists" advocate is untramelled Government spending. In fact the sort of Universal Income Scheme that the Congress promised would have resulted in stagfaltion and a complete melt down of the Economy. Why do I come to this conclusion. Because the whole venture was to be financed not through production of goods and services but thriough deficit financing. Hence it was poison from the word Go. Unfortunately our Left oriented economists cannot think beyond the Liberal economic theory.
What the present Governemnt has been doing is very sensible. It has tried to beep infation down while increasing public spending. The classic Macro Economic measures like interst rates, basis points reduction, lowering GST ect are all welcome measures while they do turn Liberal Economics on its heads has proved quite robust in dealing with the proble.
I would like the Union Government to invite the top economists from China for a one on one interaction to learn from the Chinses example. We must not be taken in by these entrpernuers of poverty.

Thursday, October 10, 2019

President Xi and Prime Minister Modi: Sino-Indian Relations at the crossroads

A look at the world of politics, statecraft, diplomacy and books

The Summit Meeting between President Xi of the Peoples'Republic of China and the Prime Minister of India, Shri Narendra Modi at Mamallapuram on the shores of the Bay of Bengal is yet another milestone in the Statecraft of the Prime Minister. The success of his diplomacy is evident from the fact that the Chinese Government has come out with a statement that Kashmir is a bilateral issue and has to be settled between the two countries. This statement is essentially a reformulation of the Chinese position vis a vis India and it certainly augurs well for Sino Indian relations. It is very clear that the two great civilizational giants of Asia--India and China-- are taking steps towards a fundamental transformation in the state of existing relations. China with the dominance of a single party and India with the nationalist BJP Government enjoying a single party dopminance over the political system are both well placed to deal with the issues confronting them from a civilizational perspective. China has been far more successful in protecting its civilzation as the CCP except for the madness during the Cultural  Revolution is well palced to defend its Civilization. India with its corrupt multiparty democracy until quite receently aws incapable of effectively protecting its heritage. There is no doubt that Narendra Modi, a global leader in his own right and Presidentr Xi who like the Prime Minister has risen from the ranks are both well experienced statesmen  will make the effort to set both the great civilizations on a course correction path.

Apart from the border dispute and bickering over the OBOR investment in PoK, there is also the issue of the huge trade deficity with China. I am sure Modi will want China to buy more from India. China is now a global leader in Higher Education and India isn struggling to make the cut. It will be a good step if India learns from China's exprience and jettison American models as far as University education goes. The Indian elite which is "English" educated is quiite at home with US and it stirs up hostility over China. It is the same elite which writes petitions on every single incident and lobbied to have the then Chief Minister of Gujarat banned from entering US. India needs a new Asia centric vision and good relations with China is central to the realization of this dream, Afterall did not the great Chinese intelelctual Hu not say that India conquered China without sending a single soldier. This goodwill was lost due to the stupidity and cussedness of Jawaharlal Nehru and Modi is certainly right is steering a fresh furrow.

Looking back through centuries we can see India and China not as adversaries but as civilizational partners. Thepicture on theLeft is of the Chinese Pagodas or Buddhist Temples constructed near Nagapattinam, a major port from where pilgrims from China landed to visit Buddhist religious sites further to the north. Unfortunately, the towers were pulled down in 1858 by Jesuits missionaries. Buddhism was an importent strand in constituting good civilizational links with India. Yendu was the word by which the Chinese referred to India and is obviously a translitteration of Indus/Hindu. In the early historical text, Shi Ji, Shendu/yendu is referred to and it is obviously, Indus, the Great River. In the fourth century Faxian visited several places in India and records the presence of Buddhist viharas in Kanchipuram. Xuanzang and Yijing visited Nalanda in their search for Buddhist texts. We get a lot of information about Chinese perception about India from these books. Obviously as the Land of Buddha, India had a status far beyon that of a third rate post colonial State the Nehru wanted India to be.

There are references to Indians in Chinese records. Nanti/Zhu Nanti is a ship owner, obviously from India whose name is found in a Buddhist text, Chu sanzang ji ji. A Tamil temple built by merchants has been discovered in Guangzhou. A Tamil inscription found there records the presence of a diasporic mechant community in the flourishing port, once visited by Marco Polo.The technology for extrecting Sugar may have come from China and of course, Cinna Pattu or China silk is referred to even in Pallava inscriptions at Kanchipuram. South Indian physcians were valued in the Tang couts and Indian medicines were sought after in China. Jiva and Nagarjuna are frequently encountered in medical texts from China. The Tang Bureau of Astronomy had the Navagraha Samhita transklated as Jiuzhi li.  Qutam Zhuan, Gautama, was the son of Gautama Siddhartha who settled in Tang China. All these references culled from Tan Sen's book India China and the World; A Connected History show the deed and abiding links between India and China. The Mamallapuram Summit hopefully will reconnect India and China with their civilizational past.

The great Ming Admiral, Zheng He visitied South India diring his 7 voyages from China to Africa. The presence of Ming copper coins in South India attest to the trading linka. There are refences to the Pandyans of Madurai sending as many as seven trade missions to China. In Markanam on the Bay of Bengal coast of Tamil Nadu large number of Chinese coins of the type illustrated on the left have been found.
China was the world's largest producer of copper in the medieval world and perhaps was the source of copper used in South India.

The last chapter in Sino Indian relations is not happy as the troops who faught in the Opium Wars were sent from Madras. It was the Madras Regiment that faught and won China for Great Britain. It is a tragic episode in that opium grown in India was forced into China in order to finance the hugely profitable Tea Trade. India is still held in contempt for the role it played in forcing a Great Civilization like China to get addicted to Opium at the behest of its white masters. Perhpas this generation of Chinese will understand that India did not contorl its destiny and asa citizen I am ashamed of this chapter in India's past.

The Summit between India and China is off to agood start. Both Xi and Modi are experienced Statesmen and will set right the niggling problems inherited from the Nehruvian past. India inherited several problems from Nehu and the dynasty obsessed Congress Party and I am sure that the wisdom of Modi and Xi will set the tone for a new beinning.


Monday, September 30, 2019

2019 Edition of Pondi Lit Fest: Full of Sound and Fury

A look at the world of politics, statecraft, diplomacy and books


LG at the Event caption
The Three Day extravaganza in Pondicherry, the Third Edition of the Pondicherry Lit Fest, the first genuine attempt on the part of those who do not subscribe to Red Fascism that dominates the intellectual discourse in India got off to a flying start with Her Excellency Dr Kiran Bedi making a remarkable speech, both scholarly and intersting, on Tamil as a Global Language and Literature. Her presentation was sharp focussed and in all respects flagged the pupose for a Lit Fest. Unfortunately her plea for an inclusive and caliberated approach towars Language and Literaure seems to have falllen on the soil of Carthage.

Professor Anand Ranganath was devastating in his criticism of the Left Eco system. We are all aware that Red Fascism at the intelelctual level was backed by State Power and the Right was reduced to a bit player during the 70 years of Congress dynstic rule. The suppression of intellectual freedom, the absolute bureacratization of culture through various state sponsore Akademis, the infringement of the academic freedom of Universites by imposing a third rate curriculaum through the agencies of state are all the ills that can be laid at the door step of the Left and their acolytes. But the Question remains: Are the Nationalists doing enough to reclaim lost territory or are they replacing one set of "sarkari" intellectuals with another
Anand Ranganath

From the eloquent speech of Professor Anand Ranganathan it was clear to me that a deep hurt resides in the heart of intellectuals. Years of rejection humiliation and alienation has opened up and demotratized the public sphere and that is due not to the intelelctual class but to Narendra Modi. It was his spectacular victory that has democratised the public sphere and intellectuals like Prof Anand ranganathan are in reality the beneficairies of that political victory. He is quite right when he rejcts the notion of of a "Right Wing Ecosystem". The fact is the Right in India, unlike the Left is riven with dissent and it is not possible to contruct a monolitic alternative to Red Fascism that has rule the Indian mind for nearly a century. And if we go by the example set by the "New Intelelctuals" of the present day sarkar, it is unlikely to make a serious dent in the legitimacy of the Left.

The Three day event was sponsored by Republic TV abd therefore as part of its Corporate Social Responsiblity underwrote this Three Day Event. I could not help wondering if the racuous crowd from Aranb's stable was just beamed into our Pondicherry. We had the same gaggle of 'tele intellectuals" M R Venkatesh, Sunil Pandit, Tavleen Singh, Vikram Sood, General Dua and the whole host of faces already seen on Republic TV and of course we had the bhadralok, Dr Swapan Das Gupta and Hanchan da. An interesting set of debates followed.

The Kasmir issue was discussed thread bare and the issue was addressed with due seriousness. Arif Mohammad was quite eloquent in his ple for a Civil Code. Hindutva and Hinduism were discussed.

Of ourse the new icons like Anirban Ganguly and Virkam Sampath were visible during the presntations. What need to be done is that "Intellectuals" should stop becoming appendages to the State. Because the Red Fascists were propped by by the then Government is no reason for us to expect the State's largess for survival. There was hardly any particiaption from Pondicherry but it is the good fortune of Pondicherry to be a prop for: In search of an Indian Intellectual.


Monday, September 2, 2019

Romila Thapar and the controversies in JNU

A look at the world of politics, statecraft, diplomacy and books

I begin by statting that professor Romila Thapar is one of India's most outsytning scholars and as a Historian she has substatial contribution to her credit. I am familiar with her work ans can say with a degree of conficence that Ashoka and the Decline of the Mauryas and her most recent Past Before Us will remain enduring works for some years to come. Thugh she does not belong to the Fernand Braudel type of Historiography which was both challenging and inventive, Thapar did introduce a distict methodological armature to the study of early India. She was a student of A L Bashyam and took her PhD under his suprevision. Along with her were R S Sharma, the reputed Maxist historian and Dr D Devahuti the celebrated author of Harsha A Political Study. The fact is that Dr Devahuti who was far more talented both as a Historian and as a teacher was percecuted by the Marxist goons who taught in JNU and Delhi University and drove this great histoan to death. My complaint is that when D Devahuti was being tortured to the point of suicide the like of Romila Thapar did not utter a single whimper of protest. Hence, I do have the firm convictin that being a part of the cabal of so called leftist historians, Romila Thapar was quite content to see her friend and shishya of the same Guru killed. She lacks a small detail called character--stand up for a colleague who is being targetted.

Niw waht are Romila Thapar's contibution to Indian Historiography. There is no doubt that she and Sharma not quite in command either of Epigraphy or Sanskrit relied primarily on secondary data. For Thapar the field had been cleared by Sten Konow and D C Sircar who translated and published Ashokan Inscriptions. Even the one stray Aramaic Inscription of Ashoka was translated by yet another of Bahshyam's student, A K Narain. R S Sharma studied the Shudra caste and assimilated all social groups who were not disctinctly Brahmin or Khatriya as Shudras. This contradiction he later tried to expalin away by stating very ingeneously that Land Grants led to the proliferation of castes.
Romila Thapar, on the other hand, directed her attention to the rather tragic encounter between the Turks and the Indians. Her Somnath: Many Voices of History attempted an analysis of the contradictory evidence pertaining to the desctruction of the Somnath Temple. Conceding that the evidence is contradictory does not preculde the historical reality of the destrcution of the Somanth Temple. The record of Turkish/Islamic invasions not only in India but al;so Persia and other parts of Asia are replete with instances of wanton dececration of religious structures. Romila does not care to answer the question: Why should the Turks behave differently here. The need to fabricate a politcally correct version of History runs right through the works of Thapar. And the Western Academia obviously lapped up her work because it confirmed their preconceived notions of Islamic history.

JNU Administration has asked for the CV of Romila Thapar in the same manner in which it has asked for the CVs of all Professors Emeritus above the age of 75. Such is the sense of entitlement that Romila Thapar has refused to furnish her CV. In the Press the strident Leftists put out their argument that Romial is being singled out. This is just not true. All Professors above the age of 75 are being reviewed and Romila also falls within that age range. Her refusal to give the CV to the authorities bespeaks of unmistakable sense of entitlement and arrogance.

The real reason why the image of Romial Thapar took a solid beating is due to the fact that she supported a JNU leader, Kanaiya Kumar who was accused of several indecent act on the campus by his female colleagues and pf course, he won notoriety all over Inidia by shouting the infamous slogan, Tukde Tukde Kar denge, Inshaallah, Isnshaallah. A historian of her stature should not have rubbed shoulders with the likes of Kanaiya Kumar who went on to lose his deposit in the Begusarai MP election in May 2019.

Romial Thapar comes from an elite background. Born to wealth privilge and social status, her concern for the poor and the deprived sound hollow.